Technologies such as JavaScript and Flash are changing the way we interact with content online. In this week's PodSession Om and I discuss the latest trends in the world of rich interactions.
Are these technologies interaction too complicated for the average person to grasp? When should you add such technologies to your web page or corporate intranet? Why are there not more implementations and examples online? Is there a talent shortage?
This week's podsession is 25 minutes long, a 11.7 MB download.
A full transcript is available below.
Transcript
Om Malik
Hi, I'm Om Malik.
Niall Kennedy
And I'm Niall Kennedy.
Om
And you're listening to Om and Niall PodSessions. Hey Niall!
Niall
Hey, Om!
Om
How are you doing?
Niall
I'm doing well, it's good to be back.
Om
Yeah, it's been a while. We took a little longer this week.
Niall
We're doing eight days instead of seven days, but, yeah.
Om
Life is happening, so can't really complain too much about it.
Niall
Definitely.
Om
You know I have been down to the peninsula so many times this last one week, not only am I tired, it's cut into my blogging time and it's cut into my writing time. But I've been picking up on a new kind of sensation down in the peninsula these days. You were at the Mashup Camp, how do you feel?
Niall
I was at Mashup camp for two days and it felt very corporate. I expected something different from Mashup Camp, I expected Mashup Camp to have an introduction, people getting to know the APIs followed by developers actually coding against the APIs.
The guys that won prizes already had stuff that was out there for a couple of years or at least a year, so they'd been around, people had already used it. Some of them had gotten jobs because of what they had developed using those APIs. So it was just - maybe my expectations were wrong going in but I expected it to be a lot more hands-on developer coding.
Om
You know that's one of the things which I've observed is that you actually have a scarcity of good talent for the so-called Web 2.0 and it's out of sync with the amount of money which is going into these companies, because if you look around there are very few clever AJAX developers. It's a special kind of skill set which people don't realize is very hard to find.
Niall
Well, the interesting thing about the AJAX world, similar to CSS and web design, is you have to know how each browser interacts with your applications. So you have to know, from a similar standpoint of how CSS would render something on the page, you have to know how AJAX or JavaScript in general would change the interaction on that page. So it has added a new layer to how you approach the web app, so you would have HTML which you might have reviewed for search engine optimization -- how did you structure the page and what are the different weightings you are giving to different text on the page for example. CSS then styles the page and now you have the interaction model which is JavaScript and sometimes using AJAX to shuttle back and forth XML.
Om
All right, one of those things which makes you develop a new found respect for applications like Zimbra or Songbird, they do so much of their stuff in all these new technologies and the variables on that is just amazing. Hats off to the guys who do that! I mean, that's my take on this is that even though I still think the bigger issue of human resources or a lack of human resources is going to be a problem, because people like Yahoo! and Google are going to suck up all the talent that there is.
Niall
Could be possible, maybe they're trying to make up for that by putting out their special UI widgets and such, but some of the talent in the JavaScript space, the guys I'm thinking of, aren't with Yahoo! and they aren't with any of the big companies. They're indie guys, they're working on open source projects, open source frameworks that are out there, so they haven't really caught on yet. Maybe even though people are looking for these type of guys they're still doing their own thing, writing their own ticket, and doing it well.
Om
Who are those guys?
Niall
I was thinking of Alex Russell, who you met at dinner the other night. He's doing the Dojo toolkit over at Jot, so Jot's his full-time job. Part of that he contributes back to the open source community.
Brad Newburg, who is a consultant and was working for Rojo and the Internet Archive on some of their projects. When you flip a page in the virtual book on the Internet Archive, that's JavaScript that he helped develop.
While they're doing that they're able to tinker and really profile what's happening in individual browsers such as Safari, Firefox, Internet Explorer, and all those different versions, and know how the apps are going to interact so you can get a good idea of the features to plan for and how your app is going to behave.
Om
But it still doesn't take away from the bigger issue, right? There is a lack of talent and all these companies are seriously getting funded. I mean not just little money, it's getting a little bit out of whack with the reality of building one of these little applications, and even rolling it out. I think that is what is the most amazing part.
Niall
Yeah, they're getting funding to build these new apps that might not get built within a big company. That's another angle: Is it possible for a big company like Yahoo! or Google to take the risks that these small companies are taking? For example, there's Google Video and there's Brightcove, two different Flash apps. I think Brightcove is doing some very cool stuff as a startup that Google is just starting to get into as a huge company. Yahoo! is doing some things in the JavaScript space, the creator of JSON (Douglas Crockford) works there for example, they have Rasmus who created PHP and so now they have some serialized PHP things today.
There's still a lot of talent being discovered at startups. Meebo, for example, has Elaine Wherry working the JavaScript magic there. People are learning this technology and I think we'll probably see a change in book sales. People will be learning how to do JavaScript.
With the new version of Mozilla Firefox, there is now a new version of JavaScript that has been introduced. Now there is a new learning curve as the other browsers, if they catch up to what's called E4X, if other people catch up to the E4X wave there are now new things you can do with JavaScript. Brendan Eich, he's who's working on that, he's at Mozilla, and he's Mr. JavaScript, so Firefox will have all of the nice JavaScript features before anyone else.
Om
Right, so, what is this new JavaScript? What does it do compared to the old ones? I have absolutely zero hacker chops, you should talk about that.
Niall
I haven't looked into it too deeply, so what I've seen just from some docs, there are different ways to handle what are called classes, wrappers around things. Different ways to handle how data is stored, how you parse through something a lot quicker. Really I'm just pulling this out of the air, I really haven't dug into it too much but for people that I talked to who know a lot more about this than I do say it's a big deal.
Om
Since you talked to those people and I talked to you, must be a big deal.
Niall